Alright, we've been getting a lot of questions/theories/confusion about the entire concept of time travel, memories, minds syncing up, etc. So as a special Friday addendum to yesterday's review, I'm going to give you my understanding of how memories and meetings are affected (and affect) time travel - complete with charts! The question we want to answer is as follows: if a time traveler visits someone in the past, will that person carry that knowledge with them going forward? My answer: nope.
Doubling Back
First off, here's a rough, broad timeline for you. Some of the dates on here are approximate, at best. But they're close enough for our purposes today. You'll probably need to click on it to enlarge. You may want to right-click and open it in a separate window and keep it open for reference. I'll wait......got it? Good. Let's use the meeting of Jin and Rousseau as an example.
On the day marked by A1 (approximately January 6th-ish, 2005) Jin travels back in time to A2 (approximately November of 1988) and meets Rousseau and her crew. Here's the key: That Rousseau you see in 1988 won't remember this meeting until she gets to point A1. Until Rousseau from 1988 gets to the day in her life where Jin traveled back in time to meet her (January 6th-ish, 2005), she won't remember meeting him. Of course, as we all know, Rousseau dies at approximately A3. So she never remembers meeting Jin.
Confused? Let's use an example where the key players are still alive: the Sawyer-Alpert meeting from Wednesday night's "LaFleur." Again, you may need to open this up and enlarge it in a separate window.
Now, the dates of 10-15-04 and 1-8-05 are approximate. But basically it breaks down as follows: Sawyer lands on the Island on 9-22-04 with Oceanic 815. On (roughly) 1-8-05, he travels back to 1974 and meets Richard Alpert. Richard Alpert will not remember this until he, himself, gets to 1-8-05. Therefore, when Richard discovers/meets/reads about Sawyer after the Oceanic 815 crash, he doesn't know him.
IN SUMMARY: if you are visited by a time traveler, you won't remember that meeting until you, yourself, get to the date on which the time traveler journeyed to meet you.
Flaws
First off - Desmond is special. I don't exactly know how the mechanics of his meeting with Faraday work out. But his situation is something of an outlier.
However, think about Charlotte's grizzly mention to Daniel that she suddenly remembers meeting him when she was a child, and he warned her not to come back to the Island. So Charlotte is actually remembering when Daniel time-traveled back to 1970-something and warned her not to return to the Island.
BUT. Daniel won't travel back in time to do that for a few days (at which point Charlotte in 2005 will be dead). So how can Charlotte remember something that Daniel hasn't done yet? A few theories:
1. The Island bestows upon some (or all) of its inhabitants varying degrees of precognition. Islanders don't have to wait until that magical date of occurence (such as A1 in the Rousseau-Jin example), they get their information a little bit ahead of time.
2. When in the throes of death, any essential time-travel-related memories get uploaded to you in your final moments. Think of it as a trippy, metaphysical reworking of the notion that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. I like this option best.
What's It Mean?
That people who are visited by time travelers are basically unwilling participants in the ever-changing course of their own life. I think. That lends itself to a knockout win for predestination over free will. And perhaps next week, when my mind isn't mush from all this LOST analysis, I'll get into how John Locke is the battleground on which that war will be waged.
Pop a Cork
And finally, if my Blogger dashboard is correct (and it's by Google, so it must be), this is our 100th post on The Dharma Blog. Maggie and I would like to thank you for taking the time to read our little blog. We've been amazed with the response, and seeing readers come from across the country (and the globe!) just to hear us pine over Jack and Kate (respectively) and fumble through our way-out theories and analyses.
While we do make millions of dollars every week writing this blog, and get invited to exclusive Hollywood parties due to our blogging skills, we really write it for you, the people. Thanks for taking the time to read and indulge us in our habit, we hope you enjoy it.
Namaste.
Charlie
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7 Snarky Comments:
I like your chart. It's a nice way of keeping things clear.
That said, I have to disagree with your basic premise. I think those people do remember being visited. Here's why: in the last episode, Sawyer asked Alpert if he had buried the bomb, and mentioned the bald guy who claimed to be their leader. But that all took place in A2. So according to your theory, Richard wouldn't remember that because he hadn't gotten to A1yet.
The other thing to consider is Locke's visit with Richard himself. If Richard wouldn't remember Locke until he (Richard)reached A1, how would he know to visit Locke in the hospital when he was born in A2? I think he was there because Locke told him to go there.
I think Charlotte and Rousseau not remembering can be explained a little more simply. For Charlotte, she was a very little girl when she was visited by Daniel. It's quite possible that she just didn't remember that event because she was too young to remember it, until something dramatic (the island jumping through time) jarred it from her subconcious. As for Rousseau, she was on that island by herself for a long time, and let's face it, she's got a few screws loose. With a woman that crazy it's pretty easy to believe that she wouldn't remember Jin.
Finally, and this is just my curiousity, but did she actually ever meet Jin during A3? I'm trying to remember all of her interactions with the Oceanic survivors, and I can't recall her and Jin ever actually crossing paths. I know when they went to the Black Rock to get dynamite, Jin was gone on the raft. And in season 3 she was traipsing around the jungle with Kate, Sayid, and Locke, but I don't remember her ever meeting up with Jin. Can someone help me out here and tell me when, if ever, Jin and Rousseau met up during A3?
Hey Batman, good points. But to be clear:
Yes, in 1974, Richard remembers when a guy named John Locke had visited him in 1954. What I'm saying is, when Richard gets to 2004, he won't piece together/remember that this bald man who just crashed here, named John Locke, is the same one who visited him 50 years ago. It will take Richard until approximately January 8th-ish, 2005, to connect those dots. Until then, John may look familiar to him, but Richard won't fully grasp it. That's my two cents anyway.
And I think Rousseau met Jin, but I can't remember. Keep in mind, she spent a fair amount of time at their camp when they were preparing to go to the radio tower. Even though Jin stayed behind on that mission to shoot the Others, one would think they would've crossed paths or she would've recognized him if she could. I mean, there's only so many Korean dudes in that bunch.
Ok, I see what you're saying and that makes much more sense. Not sure if I buy it completely, but I could believe it now.
I figured Jin ran across Rousseau sometime, I just wasn't sure if there was a specific event that I coudn't remember.
I LOVE the chart. It makes it pretty clear. And I have to agree with both your comments - Richard knows about a guy named Locke, but the first time he meets him in A1 he won't remember until some time between A1 and them meeting on the green timeline. Yah?
About Charlotte, I don't know if I agree with you Charlie. I think Charlotte suddenly remembers to create drama and a "dun dun dun" moment. Not sure if it all makes sense.
I want to know why Richard Alpert doesn't age!!
A few unsolicited opinions...
1. Great chart work.
2. I am in agreement with Batman, that the people who get visited remember the event. I mean, why wouldn't they? They never traveled through time themselves or did anything to suggest that they would lose that memory. Plus, I am convinced that young Ben will meet the 815ersin the 70s, which will help to spell out Ben's motives leading up to the 815 crash and their subsequent time travel.
3. This was not an original idea, and I might have even heard about it via the Dharma blog at one point, but someone once informed me that there are 108 days between Sept 22 and Jan 8 (1/08)! Is that why you are picking Jan 8 as their travel date?
And 4+8+15+16+23+42=....
(Also I feel bad that they didn't get to celebrate Christmas or New Years)
When Richard found a wounded John at "Zone A1", Locke questioned how he even knew he was shot in the first place, to which Richard responded that John told him so. Locke denied this, and Richard answered, "Well, you will."
If your theory is true, how can Richard remember that if it doesn't happened yet at the "OFF ISLAND TIME"?
I think the example of Richard and Sawyer is not so good because not only do they meet in the future but they also met in the past. Your example doesn't take into account that 20 years BEFORE 1974, Richard and Sawyer sort of met during the H-bomb controversy, a fact he brings up in 1974, and Richard remembers it.
And el_kin has a valid question, too.
Oh and how do you guys not remember that Jin met Rousseau?? That encounter was like a quarter of an episode long.
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