The Charlie Paradox

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(note: some users are experiencing troubles with seeing HTML code text around the post. I tried reposting this entry to fix it, and I think it only happens to PC users, but I'm not sure what the problem is)

Season Six. Episode One: LA X

I don’t have time for a cute introduction about how “worth the wait,” and “mega epic” that was. An alternate reality. Other Others. And a terrifying look at the new 2010 John Locke model, which is possibly more dangerous than a Toyota.

In the words of John Locke, upon reviewing the Dharma Initiative Orientation film, “We’re going to need to see that again.”

DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN

Alternate Reality Bites

You knew right away, didn’t you? I mean, you’ve watched the pilot episode of LOST enough to know that Cindy the flight attendant handed Jack two extra bottles of booze when he asked for a stronger drink, right? So when she only handed him one last night, you had to know, “Oh, we’re dealing with an alternate reality here.”

Confused? I wouldn’t worry yet. Remember, this time last year we were asking how the hell we were supposed to deal with time travel. And we all got through that, right?

Just so we’re on the same page here, it's my understanding that all those Oceanic 815 scenes you saw last night were the result of the Jughead detonation successfully negating the sequence of events that caused the original flight to crash on the Island. But it didn’t work seamlessly. In my opinion, it didn’t change the course of events, it split it. So our characters are now simultaneously experiencing two realities: one where 815 crashes, one where it doesn’t. So when Juliet said, “It didn’t work,” to Sawyer, she was right, because our characters were still stuck on the damn Island. And when Miles communed with Juliet to hear her say, “It worked,” Juliet was also right, because our characters are also experiencing a universe in which Jughead did what it was supposed to do.

Oh, and in this newly-created reality, big Island elements like the Four-Toed statue, Dharmaville and the Sonic Fence are, for some reason, at the bottom of the ocean. So something in the Jughead reality caused the Island to take a very different course. I’m excited to see what that was.

Don’t concern yourself too much with the paradoxes and implications of this split reality. Really. I mean it. Stop worrying. It’ll be explained as much as it needs to be explained, because – just like time travel, flashbacks and flash-forwards – it’s merely a narrative element used to tell character stories. Keep your eyes on the characters, and we’ll be just fine. Okay? Pep talk over, let’s talk about what we saw.

Oceanic 815: The Remix

Kudos to Maggie, who predicted the show would open with Oceanic 815 flying safely above the Pacific Ocean before safely landing at LAX.

But this wasn’t the Oceanic 815 experience we’ve seen pieced together through years of flashbacks. Everything was just slightly different. Jack chatted up Desmond (Desmond!?!), who grabbed a seat by him for the middle leg of the flight. Bernard returned from the lavatory. Kate bumped into Jack after leaving the bathroom. Dr. Arzt annoyed Colonel Hugo Sanders, who has apparently built Mr. Clucks into a chicken empire and experienced great fortune and luck, not a curse, from his lottery winnings. Jin & Sun remained cold and estranged, but Boone chatted up Locke about what John can and can’t do, and then the two of them agree that Boone is, indeed, kind of a jackass.

In Oceanic 815 The Remix, Jack is summoned to help a man the lavatory, whom he reaches with a little help from Sayid’s right foot. That man is Charlie, who is unconscious after accidentally swallowing a bag of heroin. Luckily, Jack saves Charlie, and doesn't get a warm "thank you" from him for his efforts. More on that later, by the way.

Okay, so obviously Oceanic 815 The Remix has some slight upgrades and downgrades from the original. Much like R. Kelly’s remix of Ignition. Oh, who am I kidding? The remix to Ignition was better than the original in every way. But I digress.

What I noticed about this version of Oceanic 815 was not the differences that resulted from the plane not crashing. I noticed some smaller things. Like Jack saying, “I had a pen in my jacket, but it’s gone,” when working to save Charlie. That pen, you’ll remember, was used by Jack in the original iteration of Oceanic 815 to save someone on the beach.

Clearly, there are going to be big differences in this Oceanic 815 (i.e., it doesn't freaking crash). But it’s the little discrepancies like Jack’s pen that have me tripped up, and believing that this iteration of Oceanic 815 is still going to be somewhat affected by what we’ve watched over the past five seasons.

Which leads me to my next point: do I give a boar’s tusk about these people that land from Oceanic 815? How is their collective story arc going to create a necessary, compelling amount of conflict? I think we started to get the answers to those questions once Oceanic 815 The Remix touched down.

Ties That Bind

Once Oceanic 815 lands, things really start to happen differently. Mostly because, well, they happen at LAX and not on a mysterious Island. Kate escapes and is abetted by Sawyer before carjacking a cab and splitting the fare with Claire. Jin is detained at customs for rocking too much ice – you never rock too much ice at LAX, man. Everyone knows that.

And most importantly, I think, is that in this iteration of Oceanic 815, Oceanic Airlines loses Christian Shephard’s coffin. This leads to Matthew Fox getting to show off his finely-honed “simultaneously disappointed and incredulous” face, and leads to one of the eerier conversations of the episode. Lock and Jack’s discussion about the lost coffin was loaded with knowing glances and important subtext. “How could they know where he is? They didn’t lose your father, they just lost his body,” says Locke, as if acknowledging the concept that a body is only a physical vessel for something much more important. That’s more of a Season 5 Locke insight, don’t you think? And how about Jack telling Locke “nothing is irreversible,” before offering a free surgical consult?

Here’s why this is important. If these characters can form enough meaningful connections (Locke with Jack, Kate with Claire, and presumably others that we are yet to see), I think they might start to remember each other and what they’ve been through. I think Jack’s near-recognition of Desmond, and all the just-too-lengthy glances between passengers throughout the episode, are the beginnings of what is going to make this alternate reality important. Somewhere down the road here, these two realities have to merge and reconcile. The narrative almost requires it. And I think that reconciliation is going to be the impetus for this season's drama. I just have no idea how it’s going to happen. Yet.

LOCKE 2.0

Kicking Ass and Taking Name

Damn I love Locke. I love new Locke, old Locke, Jacob’s nemesis, the smoke monster, etc. I guess I just love Terry O’Quinn, the actor. But I was absolutely riveted by his continued confidence and certainty in carrying out his mission last night. I thought the episode did a nice job of debriefing the big happenings from the four-toed statue during the season finale, while answering some questions and preparing us for the all-new John Locke Action Figure, now with Extra Smokey powers.

Just to be clear, Jacob’s nemesis (a.k.a. the Man in Black) has taken over the body of John Locke. He is also the Smoke Monster. I am 99.99% certain of this after last night. I’ll say it: it’s confirmed.

I loved how Locke 2.0 continued to toy with Ben, who was still emotionally shattered after killing his idol. I mean, that’d be like if I killed Kirby Puckett. Which I can’t, because Kirby Puckett is dead, sadly. Unless I can time travel or create an alternate reality in which Kirby is still alive. Damnit, it’s midnight! Concentrate, Charlie!

Locke told Ben that Jacob “knew he was beaten.” He commanded Ben to go get Richard so they could have a talk. He stalked around the room with unprecedented confidence, cleaning Jacob’s blood off his knife with the very tapestry that Jacob had woven. He was clear and self-assured. He was scary as hell.

And when Ben accidentally brought the wrong dudes in for a visit, Locke let him know just how he felt about it. After changing into something more comfortable – smoke – Locke 2.0 went to town on Bram and a pair of hapless henchmen. Even Bram’s ring of ash was no match for him, as he shook the room until Bram was unprotected, then impaled him on a loom. Death by loom. Not a good way to go. But damn, a bullet bounced off of Locke 2.0. And then he returned to Locke-form and said to Ben, “I’m sorry you had to see me like that.” God. Yes. How can you not love this? I’m amped up on the new testosterone-fortified Locke. Is this how meatheads feel all the time? I just fist-pumped, Jersey Shore-style.

Regarding that ring of ash: remember that Jacob’s cabin was surrounded by the same type of ring. We can see that this ash stops MIB/Smokey, so it’s used to protect things/places/people from him. Which is why Ilana freaked out when the ring of ash had been broken last year. Just something to keep in mind, as we know that Smokey has one weakness, albeit an apparently easily-surmountable one.

That Was The Old Me

Locke 2.0 basically spent the episode putting his foot down and reassuring Ben that he was, in fact, serious. But in perhaps the most human and tender moment, Locke 2.0 reminisced about the soul that used to inhabit his flesh: Ole’ John Locke. He talked about how confused Locke was when Ben killed him. How his last thought was, “I don’t understand.” How fitting that thought was, considering how “weak, pathetic and irreparably broken” John was when he came to the Island. But Locke 2.0 also discussed his predecessor’s more admirable quality: that he was the only Oceanic 815 survivor who “realized how pitiful the life he left behind actually was,” and how he didn’t want to leave.

Then, Locke 2.0 delivered his best line of the night before storming out of the statue, kicking Richard’s ass and admonishing his band of followers. He told Ben that, ironically, he wants the one thing that Old John Locke never did. He wants to go home.

What a brilliant set up of MIB/Smokey/Locke 2.0’s motivation for the final season. He is, indeed, a prisoner on this Island. He is there unwittingly. He is being punished, perhaps. He is beholden to Jacob – or was, anyway. He has something to prove before he can go home. But where is home? I think the answer to that question is going to be fairly grandiose. Maybe heaven. Or hell. There is certainly a “fallen angel,” quality to he and Jacob, and my way-too-early prediction is that they are cosmic gods, demons or angels; and that their struggle has implications for all of mankind. It’s big, folks. It is, quite frankly, what this show is going to be about.

THE MORNING AFTER

"It Worked" And Also "It Didn't" And Also Juliet, Just Die Already

Alright, I’m running out of time and space, and I know you all watched the episode. So I’m going to skip the Juliet-in-the-hole and Sawyer-angry-at-Jack analysis here. I'll also spare you my lamentations about the way they dragged out Juliet's death over several scenes. And I already explained what Juliet’s “it worked,” and “it didn’t work” lines meant, in my opinion. But I should share with you a quote from my dad, 12 minutes after the episode, via email. “OK, I can believe in reincarnation, parallel universes, and a gut-shot Republican Guard vet returning from the dead, but I KNOW that a VW bus could not pull a 2 x 4 out of a pothole, let alone a steel beam out of the Swan Station.” He's the best.

But let’s fast-forward to the good part: the Temple! Finally, after two seasons of allusions to this place, we finally see it. And that, friends, was worth the wait. I loved Hurley stepping up to the plate by playing the Jacob card to save he and his friends from a quick death. I thought the ankh-in-the-guitar case reveal was a little odd, but cool, and totally fitting. We got to see Jacob’s final list, as well as a written warning to his people that they must save Sayid in order to save themselves.

I love this new group of Other Others, complete with Oceanic 815ers Cindy the flight attendant and captured tail section youngsters Zach and Emma. (I was thrilled to see them come back and start to explain Cindy, and I’ll be really interested to see how they explain her progression from flight attendant to authentic Other). I also liked the new characters. There was Creepy Old Asian (COA) and that geeky white guy, who looked like he could be Radzinsky’s brother from another Other.

We also finally got a little insight into the “healing powers” of these people. They immediately took Sayid to “the Spring,” a magical healing whirlpool (more on this in a seond). And we learned that Hurley wasn’t done taking charge. In his private meeting with COA, he broke the news that Jacob was dead, sending the Other Others into panic mode, complete with signal flares, fortified walls and, yes, ash circles. They must really be afraid of this MIB guy.

But back to that whirlpool. Maggie had an interesting thought on this, which I’ll try to elaborate upon. I do believe that this “spring,” is the very method that Richard used to heal young Ben Linus last season. But remember, when Richard took Ben, he promised he’d save him but warned that Ben would never be the same after that. And Richard was right. Ben became the ruthless, manipulative leader who orchestrated The Purge from the inside. That was – as the COA put it last night – something of a “side effect,” to the healing powers of that pool. It may heal your physical wounds, but it changes you.

And now, quickly, I want to direct your attention to ABC’s promotional image of The LOST Supper, where our LOST characters were used to recreate Da Vinci’s The Last Supper. In these images, Sayid is seated in the same place as Judas, who eventually betrays Jesus.

So last night, Sayid was submerged in The Spring. He was drowned, killed, and laid out for dead on the temple floor. But then he awoke. “What happened?” he uttered, in an uncharacteristically terrified tone. I don’t know what happened, but Maggie’s fear is that something about this “cleansing process,” this healing pool, is going to change Sayid profoundly. Will the Sayid’s “side effect” be a shifted allegiance? Will he betray his friends like Judas did? And wouldn’t it be something to watch Sayid fall victim to the same circumstances that created Ben Linus, the man whose eight-year-old self he once tried to murder in order to spare the world from his evil?

THE MANY LIVES OF CHARLIE

Alright, it’s been eight months, so here’s a bonus theory for you. And kind of a fitting one for yours truly.

Did you notice Kate when she woke up last night? She couldn’t hear. Everything was muted and her ears were ringing. It was exactly what happened to Charlie after the hatch imploded.

So I’m going to go out on a limb here with a what-if. What if the hatch implosion (from Season 2) actually created a separate reality for Charlie? It either killed him or redirected his life course enough to create an alternate reality and split his consciousness and soul among two realities. And that’s why, beginning in Season 3, the universe tries to kill Charlie. Repeatedly. Because he was existing on the Island, where he was palling around with Desmond and wooing Claire. But he was also existing off the Island, where he would eventually go visit Santa Rosa and convince Hurley to bring everyone back to the Island (Don't forget, in that scene, Charlie told Hurley, "I'm not dead.") Two Charlies, each operating paradoxically in contrast to one another.

But paradoxes need to be rectified. The universe has to course-correct, so to speak. Which is why, throughout Season 3, Charlie was confronted with the inevitability of his own death on the Island. Desmond saw it repeatedly in those flashes, and ultimately, Charlie capitulated and let fate do its thing in the control room of the Looking Glass station. That was fate/the universe/God eliminating the paradox that resulted from Charlie’s existence in two separate, simultaneous, alternate realities.

And then, wouldn’t you know it, last night Charlie entered another new reality. One in which he nearly died on Oceanic 815 by swallowing a bag of heroine. One in which he was saved by a well-meaning doctor who he thanked by scowling, “I was supposed to die," because he he knows that only one Charlie can exist. And the one that needs to exist is the one who told Hurley to take everyone back to the Island. That Charlie is essential. So Island Charlie and Oceanic 815 The Remix Charlie needed to die.


In Conclusion

I love all the Charlie’s on LOST – Charlie Pace, Charles Widmore, and Charlie Hume, Penny and Desmond’s son. We all share a name, and we share it with my father, whose middle name is Charlie, and who I also love very much, and not just for his timely knowledge of VW bus limitations.

But as of last week, I’ve got a new favorite. He’s my nephew, Charles Bond, born to my wonderful sister Karen and her husband, Taylor. Here’s the little fella’, way too tuckered out to contemplate alternate reality paradoxes and content to sleep the night away in an awesome Dharma Baby Station onesie, sent to him by his favorite uncle.


Wouldn’t you know it, he got here just in time for Season Six.


Namaste.

Charlie

44 Snarky Comments:

Charlie said...

(reposted comment from the old post, from Gary)
1. You said Charlie 'accidentally' swallowed the heroin. I don't think it was an accident. He either was trying to get rid of the evidence (why he didn't flush it this time, who knows) or, in accordance with your theory, he knew he needed to die so he suffocated himself.

2. I don't think Jack had a pen in the original crash. Didn't he have Boone go search for one, and he came back 45 minutes later with 7 pens? Wouldn't that be because he didn't have a pen then, too?

3. To your father--if it's taken this long to question some of the practical aspects of Lost, then...well...how about Jack by seaon 5, in the assault on the Swan at the end, being able to shoot a firearm accurately, on the run, from 30 yards? Or a nuke "rigged to blow on impact" surviving a fall down the hatch (along with a human being), then said weakened but alive human detonating it with a few weak hits from a rock? Just sayin...

4. Was I the only one who thought the sage Asian's translator looked like what you'd get if you combined John Lennon and Ringo Starr?

5. I dig the Sayid as Jake idea.

pikachiu132 said...

Quoting my friend "how can something be so good and so infuriating at the same time?"

Many questions...
- Aside from not understanding why there is an alternate reality, what did the folks on the Island really think was going to happen if the detonation worked?
That the blast would just kill them, but their 2.0 lives will live on? Or that their consciousness would somehow merge (which would mean Oceanic Remix version of their selves would remember their old past)?
But now they live seperately but with some reminiscent memory of each other?

- Locke 2.0 walked up to Richard and called him "Richard" not Richardus like Ilana did. I wonder why? Seems like Richard has been around for a while...

- Do we know why there are all the Egyptian references? The Ankh, the Hieroglyphics on the walls of the temple, the statue?

And I LOVED Ben's look of fear and shock when he sees Locke 2.0 doing his thing.

- On that theme, Ben was changed after he was brought to the temple to become a manipulative power hoarding leader? What will Sayid turn into?
And why was the water brown, and what difference does it make?

- I didn't like how they dragged on Juliets death (especially when I saw them on the recap episodes so many times). However, what did she say before she died? Was it like when Charlotte spoke some 'gibberish' before she died, only for find out that it had something to do with her childhood? How did Juliet know it worked?

P.S. Totally agree with Gary and I was saying that Asian translator looks like a tripped up Sean Lennon

Charlie said...

Charlie,
I love the Charlie Theory!

It really got me thinking and then I realized something. You may have noticed that you and I actually share the same name as well. We also both went to TCU, we both work in advertising, we both love LOST and as this post revealed to me, we both idolize Kirby Puckett. I just hope that WE are not the same person living in separate realities because, as your theory suggests, there is only room for one.

Great post! It is going to be a great finish!

Charlie said...

Charlie - indeed, we are like the Highlander. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

Charlie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
maggie said...

I saw the first Charlie comment and thought "Jeez, TDB Charlie, did you really need to comment on your own blog about how awesome you are?" I'm glad to know it isn't The Dharma Blog Charlie...it is another Charlie...one of the many, apparently, inhabiting this earth.

Pikachiu - YES. I caught that, too. As she was dying, Juliet had a Charlotte-talks-about-chocolate-before-dinner moment and said "Want to meet up for coffee sometime? We could go Dutch." TOTALLY weird. Sawyer didn't understand. Was Juliet having a consciousness-flashing moment where she was channeling a moment not in the past (like Charlotte)...but a moment in the future?? Where she meets Sawyer? Maybe she thinks he is kinda cute (read: hot) and suggests they go get coffee??? Was this a small reference to the possibility that (gulp) there will be a happy ending for this couple??

I don't know...but I love that she spoke jibberish as she died becuase it gave me hope. (Call me crazy...I have grown to love Juliet...)

Laura C. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I think the water was brown because Jacob had been killed. I have no solid reasoning for this, I just think it would make sense.

And I completely agree with Maggie that the coffee comment Juliet makes does happen in the future, in the Oceanic 815 remix. With the island underwater, she would obviously not be on it. And it was shortly after the coffee comment that she had something important to tell Sawyer-that it worked. I believe that just like Desmond could see Charlie dying after the hatch implosion, Juliet could flash between alternate timelines after the bomb explosion, albeit for the few minutes she was still alive on the island. Maybe the island rewards selfless acts like the ones that Desmond and Juliet made with special powers. Or maybe they're just coincidental. Who knows?

I missed the blog-glad to see it back!

-Jeff

Larissa said...

Fantastic to see the Dharma Blog back in action! First, I'd like to say that I agree with your theories so far and am SO excited to see where the season leads. Second, I'd like to put out there the question I had, which is "why do you think Charlie felt it necessary to kill himself at that moment, while on the plane?" Just curious as to the implications.

Also, after last season's finale, and then seeing the MIB/Locke arc, I started to have flashbacks to "The Chronicles of Narnia.."

As always, thanks for the posts!

ricki said...

excellent, excellent work, chuck & maggie. great insights/theories. as always, i'm impressed with (read: worried about) your dedication to the blog & all things LOST.

i would first like to give credit where credit's due: maggie...very impressive call on the opening scene. chuck, nice work on making the smokey/locke 2.0/MIB connection.

a couple of things...

(1) i can't remember boone's sister's name, but what are the implications of her not being on the 815 plane that landed at LAX? i think everyone else was accounted for except her. do you think it was just a matter of not being able to get the actress to come back for an episode or is there more to that?

(2) i know you touched on this, but i really think jack's conversation with locke 1.0, particularly the "NOTHING is irreversible." comment, is a HUGE foreshadowing clue for this final season. i take it as the writers telling us not to get too attached to what we think we know.

(3) on the who/what is jacob thing...what's the history on mortals killing gods...can that happen?

(4) was it just me or when COA cut his hand and put it in the spring, did you expect it to be healed when he pulled it out...what was the point of that?

(5) did anyone else notice that when "supposed-to-be-dead-sayid" spoke that it didn't sound like sayid? maybe that was just my mind playing tricks on me. my husband has this theory that jacob is going to inhabit sayid's body and that's why he's alive again. i don't know. just throwing it out there. personally, i like the changed man/judas theory....but it will make me sad, as i love sayid like charlie loves des.

now...on the count of three..."GO DHARMA BLOGGERS! WOOOOO!"

Rick said...

Great summary. Thanks!

I wonder if the Jacob that visited Hurley at the Van and told him to take Sayid to the Temple was really the MID re-incarnated as Jacob (who had just died). He told him to take Sayid to the temple, knowing he would die there, so that he could assume Sayid's body...inside the walls and ash barrier. The ol' Trojan Horse.

Rick said...

MIB, rather (I mistyped MID)

Charlie said...

Hey Ricki!
Here are my thoughts

1. Shannon - and the producers have said that her absence (as well as that of Michael, Walt and I think some others) was very intentional, and will be explained. Their absences weren't the only thing that was different about this Oceanic 815 flight.

2. Absolutely, something to remember. One of those things we'll look back at by the end of the series and go, "Oh, of course!"

3. Not sure... Maggie teaches Sunday School. Maggie?

4. Yes, I think that's why right before it they were asking why the water wasn't clear. It's supposed to be, and I believe it has some sort of healing power. Obviously, something's wrong with "the spring," which I think is related to Jacob's death.

5. I don't think his voice was different, he's used that high-pitched voice before. It is kinda weird. But Sayid has all the sudden become a huge key. Whether he's Jacob, Judas or Jesus H. Christ, I'm not sure. But I'm watching him extra carefully from now on.

Anonymous said...

Hey when MIB/Locke was talking to Ben in the temple about real Locke's last moments, MIB said that real Locke was the only person who didn't want to leave the island. However, didn't Rose make it pretty clear that she was never going to leave the island bc she was healed. This lead a lot of people to believe that Rose and Bernard were Adam and Eve in the cave.

Also, I found it interesting when MIB told Richard it was good to see him without chains. I don't think that this is a reference to Richard being on the Black Rock as some people have suggested. I think Richard is much older and could have possibly been in chains when he built the statue and possibly the temple. Any thoughts on this?

Laura C. said...

Re: Ricki's comments,

I assumed that the fac that the water was brown, was that the spring just doesn't work or is not as potent as it supposed to be.
I found it strange that Jack/Kate etc did not question what the purpose of the spring was for, what the risks would be, before allowing Asian man to dunk Sayid in there and killing him.

I read in another blog (which I didn't like, this is the only one) that there Jacob would take over Sayid. But how is that trojan horse? Seems like Jacob is on the same side as these Other Others.

Speaking of which, were these people ALWAYS on the island? or are they new due to the Remixing?

Charlie mentioned that there were long looks from Jack/camera for people that they would have recognized from the island. I noticed that too, but could be just a gimmick. However, Jack's meeting with Desmond. They met before, at the stadium. When Desomond said "brother", Jack immediately asks if they've met.
Unless they've never met before, and..this is is just getting circular. We don't know what did and what did not happen.

Actually, I half expected Locke 1.0 to stand up. Since everything some how changed due to Remix, anything can happen.

I think a lot of the scene on the plane was trick of the eye and camera angles to play with the audience. Like Charlie says, the small details probably are the most important.

Charlie said...

Hey anonymous - great thoughts! Those are two nice way of looking at things, though I wonder how they'll circle back to Rose & Bernard, the retirees. Like the Alpert thought a lot.

Laura - thanks for your loyalty. You kids are all allowed to read other blogs, ya know :) And I'm curious about the Other Others, too. Cindy's presence there, and her mentioning of "the first plane" (Oceanic 815, as opposed to Ajira 316) makes me think they've been there throughout the saga. Remember, the Others with Richard didn't Time Warp with our Losties, so who knows. Maybe Richard said, "Okay guys, shit is getting weird. Go chill in the temple."

ricki said...

alright...two more things that i have questions about/would like to bring to light after discussing with a friend here at my office:

(1) the parallel universes are in 2 different years, right? i mean, the people on the flight are still in 2004 (that's when lost started, right?) and the people on the island are in 2007 or thereabouts, right? how are they going to make that come together? more time travel?

(2) we assume that the people in the temple are spreading ash to keep smokey/locke 2.0/MIB out. BUT, he's already been in there...he goes through that trap door thing that the 815ers just took sayid through. that's where he was when he ripped off the frenchman's arm in 1988.

that is all...for now!

Charlie said...

1. Yes, I believe it's 2004 and 2007. And how those eventually reconcile is what I mentioned as being "really important" (deep analysis, I know).

2. Good question, Smokey has been awful close to that Temple before. My memory is foggy here, but weren't we once told that the outer facade was something of a decoy or barrier to ward off Smokey?? Someone help me on this.

Anonymous said...

I think the comment regarding Richard no longer being in chains was Locke 2.0's way of telling Richard that he was free now that Jacob is dead. And to me it sounded like he was kind of bragging about the fact that he had found a way to kill Jacob.

-Jeff

The Glamour Machine said...

Hey all,
I've been in perpetual nerdgasm for the entire week and am about to watch last night's episode again to try to catch on the many things I've missed. Here's my 2 cents altho I am constantly amazed at how incredibly off the mark I usually am.

To Ricki: Mortals killing gods (or forget killing, merely offending) NEVER EVER EVER ends well. A quick Google search reveals that mortals v. gods primarily happens in Nordic myth (which seems to be absent from most Lost mythology, but I'm not terribly well informed here), but also plays a major role in Christian beliefs (Jesus = God and mortals were certainly responsible for that one).

My big take away from this episode (other than not enough Sawyer) was this: Jack & Kate both seemed to almost recognize other Losties on flight 815 more than anyone else. Hurley didn't recognize the goofy teacher, Locke didn't recognize Boone, Des didn't recognize Jack, nor did Bernard's wife (whose name has jumped out of my head). Jack & Kate however were throwing "meaningful" looks around like they were going out of style! The exception I would make here is Charlie (rockstar Charlie, not the aforementioned like-named). He's in on it somehow.

And yes, I agree that COA definitely expected his hand to heal when he put it in that swirly cesspool (ewww, by the way). His hopes were not high for saving Sayid and they all seemed surprised when he woke up. So Sayid=Jacob? I vote yes.

Cindy freaks me out (the female Richard?); Richard freaks me out; Locke has ALWAYS freaked me out (1.0 and 2.0) but I definitely liked the old Locke better. As far as characters are concerned, and their potential for major change, I am most worried about Hurley.

Everyone seems to agree that Hurley is the heart of the Losties. He's always the person who reminds everyone of their humanity and that despite the wild conditions they find themselves in there is still fun to be had (golf game, the van ride). He's also got that mystical quality in that he sees or is told to do things that are inexplicable, but he goes ahead with them because he truly believes that it will serve the greater good.

So that's my view now. I am going to watch the whole thing again, so I reserve the right to back peddle at any time.

Charlie, Maggie - thanks. I so enjoy your posts (text or video) and it was great to see Linus the dog in "real" life.
Cheers!
Glama

The Glamour Machine said...

One more thing - what was the wound on Jack's neck that he seemed confused about in the airplane bathroom?

Emily said...

I'm pretty sure that Jack's missing pen wound up in Kate's hands. She took it from him when they bumped into each other outside the bathroom lavatory, then used it to try to pick her handcuffs. If that's true, it's one more link between the characters.

The Charlie theory is brilliant. I also like the Trojan Horse idea... it's possible that MIB assumed the identity of Jacob to go talk to Hugo while Linus was talking to Richard Alpert et al and MIB was presumed to be inside the foot alone.

Along the lines of the VW bus comment, my husband thinks that MIB/Smokey/Locke 2.0 is an alien trapped on earth who just wants to go home. Which would mean that Juliet's off-hand comment about the Others building a runway for the aliens was actually a HUGE reveal! But I obviously don't buy it.

Charlie said...

Emily - you're right on the pen. I read too much into that :)

And....ALIENS!?!?! Oh come on.

Laura C. said...

Omg, one of my friends who I watch Lost with also concludes that it's aliens and the island is the mothership.

...

I don't buy it.

Batman said...

Regarding your Charlie theory: correct me if I'm wrong, but when Charlie talked to Hurley in the yard of the crazy house, didn't their conversation go something like this? Hurley: "But you're dead." Charlie: "I am dead."

Just curious because you said that Charlie told Hurley he wasn't dead and I could have sworn he said he was.

Schnicky said...

Aliens? C'mon is right! I'll punch faces if so. (In case some of you feel threatened by that I'll start with my own face and hopefully my tirade will end there)

Now then...couple of my random thoughts and be forewarned I am really terrible at trying to organize my own thoughts about all this and actually put them into writing. I just wanna contribute to the conversation somehow...so here it goes.

- I also concur on the pen. Kate was up to her old true self trying to get away. But by bumping into Jack and taking that pen, it's just revealing to us another example of the seeming inevitable course correction that's taking place. I'm wondering how all the remix Losties are gonna end up back on the island converging with their other timeline selfs. Selfs? I'm probably not making much sense.

- I found it interesting that COA said, "your friend is dead" to Jack, Hurley, etc.. It felt like COA knew Sayid was dead, but he also knew that something was going to inhabit his body. Something he failed to mention to Jack, Hurley, etc.. Obviously that was the risk that nobody asked about. Which would have been one of my first questions if I were in that scenario. Anyway...hoping it is in fact Jacob that is now residing in Sayid and not MIB. I don't feel like it was Locke 2.0/MIB. He seemed pretty occupied at the time throat choppin Richard and carrying him off.

- the way I understand it, Jin and Sun are now on the same timeline. Seems weird that Christian said to her and Frank that "they have a bit of a journey", when it would seem that she didn't really have to go anywhere. It was Jin that found his way into her present time. Don't know why I'm hanging on that. Mabe it's nothing.

great posts Charlie and Maggie. Glad your back!

Charlie said...

Batman - the exact line is, "CHARLIE: I am dead. But I'm also here." So take that how you will...

And good point on the COA, Schnick. I think he does know a little something.

Unknown said...

Was anyone else horrified to see Frogurt back? I enjoyed him being shot with the fire arrow way too much.

Here's a thought: when Jacob went to see everyone at important moments in their life- Sayid was the only who he caused actual tragedy to happen to. He saved Kate, consoled Sawyer, helped Jack, congratulated Sun & Jin, convinced Hurley he wasn't crazy and then caused Sayid's soulmate to die. Well I guess you could argue that maybe he saved Sayid from crossing the street and getting hit too...but I see it as him killing Nadia because we all know that if Sayid had been there he would have pulled some kind of badass roll move to get her out of the way.

Just a thought.

Also I'm not understanding how Desmond could possibly be on the plane. Logically you would think that when the bomb went off he would be dead? Why wouldn't we have seen any of our friends from the Others?

As always thanks for the good work!

Charlie said...

Nice observation on Sayid! I like that a lot, could be an interesting set-up to the Jacob-as-Sayid type of deal, or whatever they have planned for that storyline. I think Nadia needed to die to get Sayid back, he was the most dead-set against it.

And yeah, the Desmond thing, who knows. I hope they get back to him soon.

Laura C. said...

Correct me if I'm wrong...
but I remember when Ben pushed the Donkey wheel into Tunsia, and he met with post Island Sayid there, he told him, 'I know who killed Nadia' and that's how he got him to work for Ben as an assassin.

Maybe Ben never really knew? Bc from Sayid's point of view, all along it was a bus?

I like the Jacob move was to save Sayid from getting killed from the bus and retribution just came with it.

Travis said...

I don't think Sayid is dead at all, and it may still be the same man who has been revived, but is, perhaps, immortal, or is now a servant of Jacob. This just because of a simple observation of mine, which may be incorrect. During every other important death on the show that I can remember (Boone, Charlie, Juliet to name a few) the Life and Death Theme was playing in the background. This music wasn't playing during the scene where everyone thought Sayid had died.

But why did he not die? Is he brought back to life because Jacob knows that Sayid is the only person who can kill the MIB? Is that what the letter to the men at the Temple had said? Regardless of the changed color of the Spring, it appears that Jacob knew that this attempt would be successful. This may have been his plan all along.

Or I could be wrong. He really is dead, and his body is now inhabited by Jacob.

But mind you, this is LOST, it's probably none of the above, or anything close to what anyone is theorizing about.

Travis said...

Also, a few thoughts on why Desmond was on the plane (it may not be important, but I love Des, so I'm going to talk about him anyway):

In my opinion, it seems that if there is anybody whose life away from the Island would be most affected, it will be Desmond. If Widmore dies on the Island after The Incident, which has taken place before his daughter's birth, is there never a Penny for him to meet? However, Ben said previously that Charles "regularly left the Island" and Penny may have already been born before The Incident. But if Penny is, in fact, still alive and in the picture, Desmond never has a desire to go on the boat race because the Island is now underwater, and he never washes up on the shore of the Island. He also never has training to do, and never meets Jack in the stadium while running stairs.

However, it's possible his life has still somehow course-corrected and he has met up with the rest of the people on the plane. Did he have another meeting with Jack previously that we haven't seen yet in the alternate timeline? There is a chance that he is also replacing a member of Oceanic 815 that was on the plane before, but is now not present (ie Shannon).

BUT, did no other passenger see Desmond on the plane? Could it be that it wasn't really him, but Jack seeing an apparition? It was brought up to me yesterday, but I'm thinking this isn't the case (at least I hope it isn't).

Also, is it just me, or is his signature "See you in another life, brotha" becoming quite prophetic?

Unknown said...

I'm a Desmond lover too. Him and Penny have made me shed tears many a time. I was also thinking about that scene where Desmond wakes up in the middle of the night and says "I have to go back." much to Penny's dismay. I'm thinking that him being on the plane is some how Desmond's solve for going to the island successfully and then coming back to the loving embrace of Penny (which I was secretly hoping for on Tues) making him key to the two alternate realities meshing somehow.

Nathan A. said...

Hey all-

I understand why everyone thinks Jacob in now inhabiting Sayid- because people relate that to how MIB is inhabiting Locke.

But the difference is that MIB didn't inhabit Locke's actual body, which was still very much dead in the casket outside the foot. He just took Locke's form, i.e. made a copy.

If Jacob is indeed inhabiting Sayid, then he is inhabiting his actual body- which is a way different method than MIB used with Locke.
Maybe this is meaningless... I'm just sayin'.

Another problem I had: Why didn't they dunk Sayid face up in the water pit to allow him to breathe? Clearly he didn't need to be 100% submerged, as most of his backside was out of the water the whole time they were holding him in, so why not throw the dude a bone and let him gulp some air? They were trying to save him, weren't they? WEREN'T THEY?
And yes, I think the COA cutting his hand and dunking it in the water was a clear test to see if its healing powers still worked... a test it clearly faild. So did he actually think they had a chance of saving Sayid in the first place?

Just a few of my half-baked thoughts.

The Glamour Machine said...

I just found this online. Hope it was ok to post. Enjoy the Reduced Shakespeare Company's 10 minute review of all 5 seasons. Bonus: they are introduced by the producers.

http://sky1.sky.com/lost-reduced-the-complete-performance

PS: If you ever get a chance to see these guys, grab it. They are rolling in the aisles funny.

Aimée Jodoin said...

Okay, being the nerd I am, I watched the episode again and took notes.
So I'll just copy and paste them here.

MIB is smoke monster - found "loophole" to kill Bram by hitting rocks on ceiling in order to knock him out of ash ring

Kate stole Jack's pen to unlock handcuffs

Cindy at temple says "they were on the first plane" - does this mean there was a second??? but actually there was Ajira 316

Hurley says "it's not a guitar, dude" - he knew the wood thing was in there

Hurley on the plane said he won the lottery, but since the island was blown up, the numbers were never on the radio waves and that crazy guy never would have heard it so Hurley never would have heard that. So what numbers did he use to win the lottery??? That is an enormous plot hole right there...

Charlie on plane says he was "supposed to die" - maybe they remember everything, and if they are not pretending on purpose then they are doing subconsciously. They remember like repressed memories maybe???

My theory: plane scenes are flashbacks that haven't happened yet - they already lied once so maybe they time travel back again and have to relive everything with the knowledge of what happens

"if your friend there dies, we're all in a lot of trouble" - note from Jacob - maybe he meant Jacob instead of Sayid: if Jacob dies then we are in a lot of trouble...

John Locke says “my condition is irreversible” which is ironic because he regained use of his legs on the island, and also the situation they are in at that moment is something that occurred because they reversed the incident

“it’s good to see you out of those chains” - nemesis to Richard - maybe Richard was on the black rock

why is nemesis “very disappointed” in all of the plane survivors???

Where did Desmond disappear to?

They jumped thirty years into the future, so maybe that is what screwed up Juliet’s mind like they screwed up Charlotte's. But if it did work and she had a flash forward that revealed her and Sawyer happy together in the future (therefore proving that it worked) then my theory is probable: the plane scenes are flashbacks that haven’t happened yet. Or maybe she meant it worked by them transferring back to 2007 where they should be.

People not on plane second time around: Shannon, Michael, Walt, back passengers like Eko and Ana Lucia

“Trojan Horse” - nice way of putting it, but it makes more sense to say that MIB and Locke was a Trojan Horse

oh crap, rose and bernard were living happily in 1977 so now they must be in the parallel universes too right? we’ve seen them on the plane, but are they in 2007 also? maybe they were not in the area of the bomb so they did not go to 2007 and just died in 1977 and are Adam and Eve from the caves.

But what about everyone else from 1977? Are we going back to see what happened back there?

Jack recognized Des so they DID meet in the stadium and Des DID do the boat race, but since the island was blown up, he did not get sucked into the electromagnetic field or whatever, so he finished the race and made it back to marry Penny and stuff. But why would he be in Australia? And how did he disappear off the plane???

and Daniel Faraday, if the island blew up, would be born and could not go to the island and would live happily ever after

“See you in another life, brother.”

Aimée Jodoin said...

OMG! There was an episode if you remember when Sun had her baby back in Korea in 2005 or so. And Jin was there buying a panda for somebody in China and he said he worked for Pak. Maybe that was the second time when everything was "reset". That has always been a piece that seemed out of place, so maybe this is where it fits.

Tim said...

Jack and Desmond HAVE met before the island. That is why Jack recognized Desmond on the plane in LAX landing reality. They met in that arena place when Jack was running on the track before he performed surgery to fix his wife's back. Before they parted, Desmond said "See you in another life, brotha" - I think it was in season 1 or 2.

My friend just reminded me of this. So, I don't think they recognized each other from the Island reality, just from a previous meeting.

Travis said...

We don't know that Desmond and Jack still met in this alternate timeline. If the Island is underwater, then Desmond never goes on the the boat race and doesn't crash and wash up on the shore there. And if you remember correctly, the reason Des was training at the stadium was because of the boat race. So we don't know that Des had a reason to be at the stadium training at that same time if there was no boat race to train for.

Also, Jack almost instantly recognized Desmond in the Swan Station at the beginning of season 2 once he heard him say "Brotha." I think if they had met at the stadium in the alternate timeline as well, Jack would have fully remembered him again.

Laura C. said...

re: Aimee's commentary

I think Cindy (i didn't even realize it was here) meant that they were on the original plane (Oceanic) the first time around. Somehow she knows, and the Other Others know as well.

I'm not sure if Desmond disappeared or just went to the bathroom?

Agreed. What happened to Bernard and Rose? Why are we always asking this question?

And so if the island is underwater, what does that mean for Alex and Rouseau?!?

Aimée Jodoin said...

Laura,
Cindy was captured by the others on the island so she had been living with them for the past three years. and she was there at the temple along with those two kids the others took as well.
Plus Desmond was not on the plane as it was landing...
Alex and Rousseau died on the island, but if the island sunk then the French team never landed there so they are happy in France. Yay!
Rose and Bernard are so happy together and that is all they want is to be together, so they are great characters that we just love! even if they really aren't important to the plot line, we still care. :)

Anonymous said...

Anyone have any theories on the book they found on their way in to the temple?

The book was a french translation of Fear and Trembling by Soren Kierkegaard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Trembling

Laura C. said...

I totally forgot about Cindy. And now that I look it up she had a fairly significant role in everything. I might have to re-watch everything now

Tim said...

anyone else notice that the guys that show up in the statue with machine guns have appeared before? the one that sprinkled ash around himself and still died when lock/MIB shook the ground was the same guy that grabbed miles and his fish taco off the sidewalk last season to tell him "you're fighting on the wrong side." when miles said "which side are you on?" he said "the side that's going to win."

anyway...same guy.